Great topic! One definition of community is people who talk to each other about each other. When does our speech help build meaningful community and when does it harm? Not always easy to know. Buddhisms gates of speech are an excellent guide.
The Bible verse you quote is typically understood to refer to lying as part of a legal proceeding. But you’re right, there are other Biblical verses that speak directly to gossip. Example: Leviticus 19:16 “Don’t go up and down as a talebearer among your people.”
Dan, thanks for contributing to the conversation. I didn't know the particular verse I quoted typically refers to lying as part of a legal proceeding. That's enlightening and very interesting. As that too seems to be a part of the current narrative.
Gossip is just the outward manifestation of comparing. That, and also seeking verification, which one here defined community, "as talking about others, to others". Why do we think we need to compare?
✓ It is our fear of not being "good-enough". That was drilled into us in the first grade, and ever thereafter. Pass this test with high grades, or you're a flunky. And when school grades were given on the "bell-curve" there are flunkies.
✓ Another reason to compare is our claim to "Democracy". We have "equal rights", so what' does that other guy have that I don't have? Then I want that iPhone too. Comparing is about coveting, and about our envy. Envy is the basis of capitalism, that which keeps everyone buying. (Don't give up your envy, or our economy will collapse.)
Self love is about saying, "I'm me", no matter what that other bastard is doing. Stopping gossip is not about being-nice, so the church deacon will approve. It is about being on your own path with the growth of your own experience. Yesterday's experience is the platform on which new things can happen today. If nothing new happened yesterday??? Well, maybe nothing new happened last year either.
Without comparing, you are giving up your outward search, (or part of it), and finding your own true interests. Interests are what give you satisfaction. Comparing usually kills interests, because someone out there is better at it than you are. So, what's the use? School told us we have to excel (compare). For instance, if we learned a musical instrument it was for a reason, to be in the band and then in the orchestra. Now we're old and there are no orchestras. So give it up; without a "reason" to do something, can't we do it just for our own enjoyment? Only if we say so.
About the Four Gates of Speech:
People who honor scriptures, of all faiths, attempt to mold themselves after the ancients. Often it doesn't "feel-right". So it is a continuous battle to "be good". (Like you said, sometimes Snarkism, feels better.) People are giving me "hits and blows" all the time. I shouldn't give a few back? Maybe so.
It takes enunciating your objectives in order to go beyond your feelings. If my objective is to demolish someone, strike back, and hit hard. If my objective is to get over this drama, there must be another way. Really, I want to get-on with discovering the creativity of my own life. This little upset cannot be at the center of it.
In another thread you asked me what I know of meditation. I promised to answer. But it is a wide-ranging topic and off subject for that other thread, (it was about the basis of inspiration). I can still write it.
My objective is it have a dialog. Not everyone wants that, because opposing points, or modifications are brought in, (otherwise it is not a discussion). Perhaps you're doing fine just the way you are? That is not exactly true, because people come to coaching because they're not doing fine.
Personally, I am repelled by gossip enough that I don't care to compare, even to see what the authorities are doing. For the most part, the "experts' are just a diversion, from me finding out about myself. If you really "let-in" the causes of gossip and comparing, (which is inadequacy), I think most open people will refrain.
________________
Many feel that the natural human tendency is to "go astray" from what is said to be the best behavior. Why is that? There is the answer in what you are continually telling yourself. It is your world view and definitions of what is right and what is wrong, and of how others should conform to your view.
Let's look at Buddhism: Of the four noble truths the most important is "All Life is Suffering", Dukkha
Is your life all about suffering? If you believe Buddhism is an important teaching, then you are justified in crying about suffering. That's why you're here for coaching, right? The definition is a little bit softer though. “The world is a chaotic place creating much stress”. That is the same definition as the primary tenant of Buddhism. I see these definitions as devastating. Sure, there is some chaos, or even a lot, but are you adding to it, or are you organizing it out of your life?
Dukkha is caused by Samudaya, "Desire". Desire means comparing. The cure is Nirhoda, "Letting go of Desire" (not comparing). Letting go of desire could be good, but many people let-go of everything. Then the eight-fold path starts with "right-understanding". So, the challenge is to understand what you are telling yourself that creates contradictions and confusion. Then on to perfect that language, (change your beliefs).
Many of us lean on scriptures, but we believe that we have the right to cherry-pick and use only what serves our current mind-set. This selection occurs with the Christian Bible also.
[I have heard another translation of Dukkah, it's a wheel with the axle off-center. So, it is about "ups-and-downs" in life that you can't explain to yourself, not exactly suffering.] We are telling ourselves, "it shouldn't be this way". If you were grounded in your own understanding, would you need as many scriptures? Many people don’t rely on scriptures at all, but we say that they are lost, and they are the cause of all problems.
You want to paste-on these moral attributes, but many times it doesn’t feel right. It doesn’t feel settling. If you often revert back to the old mode of operating, it means the new tenants didn’t work. Fortunately, you have an excusing definition, it is the original sin, or my permanent deficiency. "Copy&paste" is done by force (discipline), and it is unlikely to produce lasting results, or without resentment.
I said that I never gossip. It has nothing to do with force. By my definitions, (my understandings) it is the only way that makes sense. I am just a rational being, not a religious zealot. Let's look at the four gates of speech.
1) Do we ever know what the truth is, by taking all sides into consideration? It is best to be humble about the word truth. 2) Does "it need to be said" only to get a load off of your shoulders? How did that load get on there? Is it because your own discomfort is your most important aspect? Only say something if it will be constructive for who you're talking with. (I am saying this, and I don't know who is ready to hear it?) 3) The right time is when others are ready to hear it, and to take some constructive action, for their own good, not for your good. 4) Be Kind. That comes with your objectives. If you want the other to receive anything.
I think there can be a rationality behind behavior, then it is easy to implement them. I prefer to work with language awareness to find that rationality. What are the underlying assumptions? Unexamined, they cause untold harm.
I remember my next-door neighbor saying to me, when we worked briefly in the same tax office, “there are things one does not do.” She referred to the manager’s concern over a returning worker. I’ve kept that one piece of wisdom with me for two decades. Thanks for the reminder.
Thanks for writing, Paulette. I recently lost a friendship of 10 years because I made the choice to no longer engage in gossip. I didn't realize it was the thread holding our connection together until I abruptly took it away. Our last conversation was about what someone was doing with their life. I told her, I'm no longer interested in that and haven't heard from her since.
Additionally, we live in such a voyeuristic society that because we a glimpse of someone's life, we feel we get a permission slip to dissect, criticize, and judge.
I didn't know of the four gates of speech. I plan to keep an eye on mine for the next few weeks - especially, "is it necessary to say it?"
Janice, I will be too. Thanks for taking up the challenge with me.
Great topic! One definition of community is people who talk to each other about each other. When does our speech help build meaningful community and when does it harm? Not always easy to know. Buddhisms gates of speech are an excellent guide.
The Bible verse you quote is typically understood to refer to lying as part of a legal proceeding. But you’re right, there are other Biblical verses that speak directly to gossip. Example: Leviticus 19:16 “Don’t go up and down as a talebearer among your people.”
Dan, thanks for contributing to the conversation. I didn't know the particular verse I quoted typically refers to lying as part of a legal proceeding. That's enlightening and very interesting. As that too seems to be a part of the current narrative.
Gossip is just the outward manifestation of comparing. That, and also seeking verification, which one here defined community, "as talking about others, to others". Why do we think we need to compare?
✓ It is our fear of not being "good-enough". That was drilled into us in the first grade, and ever thereafter. Pass this test with high grades, or you're a flunky. And when school grades were given on the "bell-curve" there are flunkies.
✓ Another reason to compare is our claim to "Democracy". We have "equal rights", so what' does that other guy have that I don't have? Then I want that iPhone too. Comparing is about coveting, and about our envy. Envy is the basis of capitalism, that which keeps everyone buying. (Don't give up your envy, or our economy will collapse.)
Self love is about saying, "I'm me", no matter what that other bastard is doing. Stopping gossip is not about being-nice, so the church deacon will approve. It is about being on your own path with the growth of your own experience. Yesterday's experience is the platform on which new things can happen today. If nothing new happened yesterday??? Well, maybe nothing new happened last year either.
Without comparing, you are giving up your outward search, (or part of it), and finding your own true interests. Interests are what give you satisfaction. Comparing usually kills interests, because someone out there is better at it than you are. So, what's the use? School told us we have to excel (compare). For instance, if we learned a musical instrument it was for a reason, to be in the band and then in the orchestra. Now we're old and there are no orchestras. So give it up; without a "reason" to do something, can't we do it just for our own enjoyment? Only if we say so.
About the Four Gates of Speech:
People who honor scriptures, of all faiths, attempt to mold themselves after the ancients. Often it doesn't "feel-right". So it is a continuous battle to "be good". (Like you said, sometimes Snarkism, feels better.) People are giving me "hits and blows" all the time. I shouldn't give a few back? Maybe so.
It takes enunciating your objectives in order to go beyond your feelings. If my objective is to demolish someone, strike back, and hit hard. If my objective is to get over this drama, there must be another way. Really, I want to get-on with discovering the creativity of my own life. This little upset cannot be at the center of it.
.
In another thread you asked me what I know of meditation. I promised to answer. But it is a wide-ranging topic and off subject for that other thread, (it was about the basis of inspiration). I can still write it.
My objective is it have a dialog. Not everyone wants that, because opposing points, or modifications are brought in, (otherwise it is not a discussion). Perhaps you're doing fine just the way you are? That is not exactly true, because people come to coaching because they're not doing fine.
Personally, I am repelled by gossip enough that I don't care to compare, even to see what the authorities are doing. For the most part, the "experts' are just a diversion, from me finding out about myself. If you really "let-in" the causes of gossip and comparing, (which is inadequacy), I think most open people will refrain.
________________
Many feel that the natural human tendency is to "go astray" from what is said to be the best behavior. Why is that? There is the answer in what you are continually telling yourself. It is your world view and definitions of what is right and what is wrong, and of how others should conform to your view.
Let's look at Buddhism: Of the four noble truths the most important is "All Life is Suffering", Dukkha
Is your life all about suffering? If you believe Buddhism is an important teaching, then you are justified in crying about suffering. That's why you're here for coaching, right? The definition is a little bit softer though. “The world is a chaotic place creating much stress”. That is the same definition as the primary tenant of Buddhism. I see these definitions as devastating. Sure, there is some chaos, or even a lot, but are you adding to it, or are you organizing it out of your life?
Dukkha is caused by Samudaya, "Desire". Desire means comparing. The cure is Nirhoda, "Letting go of Desire" (not comparing). Letting go of desire could be good, but many people let-go of everything. Then the eight-fold path starts with "right-understanding". So, the challenge is to understand what you are telling yourself that creates contradictions and confusion. Then on to perfect that language, (change your beliefs).
Many of us lean on scriptures, but we believe that we have the right to cherry-pick and use only what serves our current mind-set. This selection occurs with the Christian Bible also.
[I have heard another translation of Dukkah, it's a wheel with the axle off-center. So, it is about "ups-and-downs" in life that you can't explain to yourself, not exactly suffering.] We are telling ourselves, "it shouldn't be this way". If you were grounded in your own understanding, would you need as many scriptures? Many people don’t rely on scriptures at all, but we say that they are lost, and they are the cause of all problems.
You want to paste-on these moral attributes, but many times it doesn’t feel right. It doesn’t feel settling. If you often revert back to the old mode of operating, it means the new tenants didn’t work. Fortunately, you have an excusing definition, it is the original sin, or my permanent deficiency. "Copy&paste" is done by force (discipline), and it is unlikely to produce lasting results, or without resentment.
I said that I never gossip. It has nothing to do with force. By my definitions, (my understandings) it is the only way that makes sense. I am just a rational being, not a religious zealot. Let's look at the four gates of speech.
1) Do we ever know what the truth is, by taking all sides into consideration? It is best to be humble about the word truth. 2) Does "it need to be said" only to get a load off of your shoulders? How did that load get on there? Is it because your own discomfort is your most important aspect? Only say something if it will be constructive for who you're talking with. (I am saying this, and I don't know who is ready to hear it?) 3) The right time is when others are ready to hear it, and to take some constructive action, for their own good, not for your good. 4) Be Kind. That comes with your objectives. If you want the other to receive anything.
I think there can be a rationality behind behavior, then it is easy to implement them. I prefer to work with language awareness to find that rationality. What are the underlying assumptions? Unexamined, they cause untold harm.
.
It sometimes seems impossible not to default to engaging in gossip, but it's true that it leaves you feeling kind of gross and dirty after.
It does make you feel yucky. Thanks for reading Julie.
I remember my next-door neighbor saying to me, when we worked briefly in the same tax office, “there are things one does not do.” She referred to the manager’s concern over a returning worker. I’ve kept that one piece of wisdom with me for two decades. Thanks for the reminder.
I'll remember that as well, "there are things one does not do."
Thanks for writing, Paulette. I recently lost a friendship of 10 years because I made the choice to no longer engage in gossip. I didn't realize it was the thread holding our connection together until I abruptly took it away. Our last conversation was about what someone was doing with their life. I told her, I'm no longer interested in that and haven't heard from her since.
Additionally, we live in such a voyeuristic society that because we a glimpse of someone's life, we feel we get a permission slip to dissect, criticize, and judge.
Such a great and timely post ❤️.